10 points if you can prove poker is more about skill than luck. SHOW ME EXAMPLES OF SKILL.
and what is skill in poker?
Another fact is that human beings cheat whenver they have the chance. Are you gullible enough to believe that online poker is 100% clean?
And you may say:"poker sites run such a lucrative business, they wouldn´t risk it with cheating" ever heard of the word GREED?isn´t paying a bunch of nerds to sit in a room filled with computers 12 hours a day, playing on the site, teaming up and making sure most suckers and gambling addcits money stay in the house,… i mean, isn´t this a way of cheating? against the average joe who has a gambling problem and is playing in a table with 3 kids who get payed to team against him and take his money.
anyway IF OR WHEN THERE IS NO CHEATING INVOLVED poker is a game of luck and the only thing you can control in each hand is how much money you will risk losing.
second time i ask this adn below are some answers i got. i find the poker people hilarious saying they have skills as if they played chess, golf, chequers, darts or something like that.
pleease MAKE ME LAUGH! the way the ones below did.
@"Have you ever seen a hand not reach showdown? Like someone bets, and someone raises, and the other people fold, and someone wins a hand and you never see their cards?
Did they win the hand based on luck? Of course not, they made a bet and got people to fold. That’s skill."
-no that´s not skill. they either bet because they had something or because they bluffed. if they had something they were lucky. and if they bluffed and others folded they were lucky nobody had something.
@"You ever see a hand where the river puts out the 3rd heart, and someone bets, and someone else just calls with one pair because he thinks the other person was bluffing? And he was right and wins the hand? Is that luck? Of course not, he made a good read and won the hand."
—–such reads don´t exixt in online poker. he didn´t make a good read. he made a BET and he was lucky the other guy was bluffing because there was no way for him to know. what read? "oh i think he doesnt have the flush and since he is not asking too many chips i will call him. if i’m right and he is bluffing i´m great, but if the dude has a flush i´m still great but he is a lucky bastard" that´s the way they think.
@" tourney hands live are nowhere near as fast as online, because you are still waiting for a dealer to shuffle and deal cards."
online speed also varies a bit from site to site.
anyway, if you go see live poker you will notice how fast certain dealers are, and how many hands are quickly folded to the big blind.
@"Human being cheat? Wow… what a concept. And they only cheat on line, right? No one has ever heard of people cheating in poker in real life, right? Before the advent of computers, poker was the cleanest game you could ever play, because no one ever cheated… right?"
-live pro poker players were all cheaters because it´s impossible to make a living from poker without cheating. they cheated and that´s why they had to go from town to town. some knew how to deal from the bottom, they pretended they didn´t know eachother and exchanged information through pre defined tells. yes they cheated because if you play poker without cheating there is no way you can win consistently enough.
there are still some people able to cheat live but most cheaters are now paid by sites to play there and some own sites. poker sites are the modern age cheaters and sharks.
@"Hopefully I’ve won some of your cash over the years"
- are you paid to write that? typical non sense
@" Bluffing is a poker skill. Raising, when you think your opponent is weak, is a poker skill. Re-raising, because you think your opponent is only raising because he thinks you are weak (even if you are) is a poker skill. If you can’t comprehend that, then I suggest you don’t play. Just assume that Phil Helmuth and Phil Ivey and others are just the luckiest people on the planet, they’ve got no skills at all."
-bluffing is skill?online you never know what your opponent has. if you re raise all in preflop with 72 and the guy holding JJ folds you are bluffing but that is no rocket science. any idiot can do that. any idiot can THINK or FEEL weakness and be wrong or right. bluffing is making a bet that the other guy either has nothing or will fold and there is no way you can feel him on the internet.
reraising is skill because he thinks that you think that he is bluffing and maybe you are bla blah blah…COME ON!!! lol i pick a number from 1 to 3, you think i picked number 2, and you are right. well acording to poker people guessing right in this type of situation is a skill. isnt that wonderfull?
@" If you can’t comprehend that, then I suggest you don’t play. Just assume that Phil Helmuth and Phil I
@"While luck is a factor in poker, I think that it is more about skill and strategy. You do have to know when to raise, bluff, etc. It also takes skill to maintain your poker face. If someone does not have this skill, they will be a terrible poker player. Not to mention being aware of your opponent. You should know their tell. I think I said that right haha, anyway. :)"
—first of all you can forget about poker faces and tells in online poker
in live poker, yes they are important and certain people, you can always know how strong they are from their face and behaviour at the table. again, taking money from someone who suffers from an uncontrolable nervous tell is nothing to brag about. live poker is interesting because you can try to interpret signs, like trembling hands, expression changes on the turn or river, staring at a specific card, quickly reaching for his chips when you bluff a raise, lots of tinteresting things but nothing too hard learning to control.
you can wear sun glasses, hats, scarves (so they cant even see your neck veins pumping blood quicker than usual lol) and just stand still all the time covering your mouth with your hands and minimize a lot any chance of reading you.
when to raise, bluff etc? there are no rules for when it´s right to do those things. only rule is:if you win you were right and if you lose you were wrong.
raising, re raising, and bluffing will in fact make you win consistently against novices, and people who have problems. the kind of people who loses cars and houses in f*****G slot machines and there are many people like that out there for poker smart a“es to prey .
is that noble? no! is that hard? no! because any patient but dumb crook can take money from gamblers in a poker table (more often than not). but when too serious players meet, luck is the only defining factor.
@"poker is 75% luck and 25% skill, the skill is based more on, how you play the cards that the luck gave you, going all in with a K A for example is not skill its just going all in, and you might get one or two people who will join in (this is in a real poker game btw not facebook poker where everyone goes all in all the time, and for nothing) but skill is play the hand carefully that you get everyone betting and raising you, because they think they can beat you."
—75% luck
25% not skill just knowing how to play. saying raising AK pre flop is skill is the same thing as saying the guy in the slot machine skillfully pushed the right buttons because he knew what buttons to push.
the reasoning behind raising AK is too basic to be considered a skill. it´s just knowing how to play. if you raise it´s because you want less competition possible for your AK but enough to make a profit with an hand that can beat most hands more often than not but can still lose to the underdog 10x in a row.
@"thats the skill part to keep everyone in the game still betting and raising, just by your behaviour with the cards"
—everybody bets and raises based on what they are holding and the flop. and what they are holding is what luck gave them and the flop is a product of luck too.
@"but basically like i said its very much all about luck, the skill just comes in when you play the hand, getting everyone to fold is NOT good thing, less money= less of a win."
—when everyone folds after youb raised your AA is not because you are not skilled and they are. it´s only because they didn´t feel good about their hands. it´s only because they were lucky they didn´t get a JJ and you were unlucky to get an AA when everybody had 72s and 10 3s. and you can see this happening to your AA in any loose table too even if you raise just a little. and if they call you need luck not to get caught.
@"Already been explained. Of course, you can’t comprehend"
hugh yes poker is very complex lolol
@"It is a combination of Luck, Skill, and Intuition. Professional poker players don’t get to be professional pokers players because they are just lucky."
—-oh yes they do!!! darvin moon was offered a contract to become pro for a site because he finnished second at the wpt.he was an amateur and suddenly he was good enough to be a pro because his QQ beat AA on the flop during tha tournament. and many others became pros for the same reason. and he was lucky in that tournament. cada was lucky too. lot´s of all in pre flop to get there. the work of a professional player is looking rich and glamorous, advertise their sponsors, write a bunch of crap trying to turn luck into science, play online and getting payed for it even if they lose, because their job is all about keeping the money in the house, and lure people into thinking "wow, im smart, i could do that" and paaaaaaay to play!!!
@"If you want any kind of chance for your money then you need to practice. This will give you experience. Through this experience you will gain wisdom. Through this wisdom you will hone your skills. It is not all based on luck. Nobody is that lucky all the time."
—-i agree you need to practice. get familiar with what is what, and know the odds. but after that, is all about luck.
and those you call "pro players" are not lucky all the time. in fact they lose a lot and they dont talk about it.as for tourneys you see them in a final table often because they belong to a team and they had people "giving" them chips. in the end if they get to the money the prize is shared. but they may get unlucky in the next tourney and end in 563th and nobody even notice them.
those "pros" need the online poker to sponsor them becaus ethey could never make a living from it alone. if they could, why would they share their profits with the site?
why dont they register and take everybody money instead of playing for the house and getting a salary either win or lose??
they dont because they can´t. they must work for the sites because if they tried making a living from that they would starve and be eaten by loan sharks lol
@"If there is any kind of skill in poker, I would say it’s about 10%. The other 90% is luck"
yes, and those 10% is knowing the rules lol
@"Honest to God it would just take way too long to point out all the flaws in your thinking. You obviously have it in your head that the only reason anyone out there can make money playing poker is by cheating."
—you obviously didnt pay enogh attention to what i wrote because i never said the only way anyone can make money by playing poker is cheating. you must read what i write and not what you would like me to write.
about the situation you described, and the fold. there are flaws in your example but it doesnt matter. bottom line is:
nobody will get in a situation that will most likely end all in with a pair of k against 2 players. now, paying attention to betting paterns??lol if you are up against experienced players the guy you say never re raises may even be bluffing you because he knows that you think he must be strong and you were unlucky to get nothing but a measley pair of Ks on the flop). as for the third guy he is probably the strongest and he is taking the ride.
he sees the other guy trying to get rid of you (if he raises pre flop a lot he likes to bluff), you trying to get your K paid but checking the waters at the same time (wich was wrong like you said).
so, someone who knows the rules (not skilled) will dodge that hand.
but the compulsive gambler, the novice, the kind who loses the house, the guy who comes from a streak of 6 bad beats and is getting desperate because his wife is calling him for dinner, those will probably go all in after flop with a pair of Ks and make you feel like you fooled them.
but if he is a player (like i said before) he will play rational and you need luck to take his money.
@" If you can’t comprehend that, then I suggest you don’t play. Just assume that Phil Helmuth and Phil Ivey and others are just the luckiest people on the planet, they’ve got no skills at all."
-helmuth and ivey got lucky one day like darvin moon did, and they were offered money to play even if they lose. they are poster boys to lure people to sites and tournaments but mostly sites.
they have peole to build their stacks in tournaments. they are not lucky, they work for the sharks.
@ "If you even believe half of the garbage you just wrote, I’m surprised you would have even played poker or found on line poker in the first place. Did you always have these beliefs? Or just after you started losing?"
-hummm yeah right! what i wrote is garbage because is all true.
there is an industry commited to make people believe that there is a way to consistently win at poker. what they don´t explain is that the only way to consistently win at poker is at the expense og gullible people and compulsive gamblers who are easy prey for the nerds who play cool and relaxed bacause they have wages either win or lose.
i like poker and played it all my life, and i played it enough to know there is nothing you can do but rely on luck if your opponent is not either: a)a novice or b)a coompulsive gambler/alcoholic, or desperate and psychologically messed up. so yes you can beat those consistently. you can even build a multi million dollar industry to target and exploit those people.
i was in prison for 2 years and during those 2 years i played or watched playing poker daily for many hours. we played mostly because there was nothing better to do. and i tell you something else, if poker was a game of skillfuly bluffing and raising and re raising, most of the incarcerated would all be millionaires and would never havce to rob or deal drugs because most of them are better at reading people than any helmuth or ivey.
somtimes i won, other times i lost. i could have a lucky streak and fell like i was skilled or an unlucky streak and feel unlucky. thing is when i won i knew that even if i felt like it was due to skill, it wasn´t! i was just being lucky
i know what luck is. i know what poker is
@"Apparently you weren’t interested in getting answers, but just ranting. Obviously you have no skills yourself, so it must be no one else does either."
-what skills? skill of guessing? skill of taking money from people new to the game? skill of taking money from drunk people? des0perate people? mentally ill and adicted to gambling people? you mean thos skills?
lolololololololol keep me laughing…you didnt answer the question, obviously you know im right and so does everybody else.
@"Why bother posting a question if you already have your mind made up. Several folks have already given you good answers and all you do is rant and rave. This is a site to ask questions, not start a debate.
—my mind is made up? ok.
the ansewrs i was given were typical answers so far.
i want to understand even more how a pure luck game somehow was turned into a skill game comparable to chess in the public head, by clever marketing, promises of wealth and the simple fact that these wise guys who run sites ommit how many families and lives were destroyed by gambling over the years in comparison to the number of poster boys they use to lure people into giving them money with promises of easy glamourous life. poker is a game you learn i 1 hour but need a lifetime to master cos youb cant master LUCK thats why…unless u r sponsored lol
@"Wow ok, I have so much to say on this topic. I’ve played poker for 4 years, live and online and I can tell you with 100% certainty that poker is definitely not just luck. All it really takes to realise this is to study players statistics. If poker was 100% luck then you would expect it to even up over time, and players would win roughly the same number of games, come in the top 8 or top 16 roughly the same number of times, and I promise you this does not happen."
—flip a coin. there is 50% chance to tales or heads. right? right!
ok, if you flip it 100 times and get heads 68x does it mean heads is more skilled than tales and that´s why it prevailed in the long run even if it lost by 7-3 in a set of 10 flips?
that should answer another typical argument
@"There is of course a luck element. You might be able to put your opponent on a good hand, but almost always you can only take an educated guess as to how good it is. For example if there’s a pair on the board and you’ve hit a full house, and you’re playing against an unknown opponent, and you can tell he thinks he has a good hand, but how do you know what your opponent thinks is a good hand? He could have trips or he could have quads. You can only use what information you have gleaned in the past to make an educated guess. You might put him 95% of the time on trips, 5% on quads. In which case you are relying on a little luck that this time he will have trips."
whatever is on the board, and whatever you both hold, it was luck that put it there.
all you can do is guess (and guessing is not a skill) and choose how much money you are willing to risk. nothing else.
@"The next thing to understand is that ANY skill element in a game means that over time the skill element will seperate people because the luck will even out. Games such as Snooker, Tennis, Bridge, etc all have luck and skill elements, but you wouldn’t rule them out as merely luck games simply because they have a luck element would you?"
—-what can i say about this??just laugh. you use snooker and tennis luck elements to minimize the relevance of luck elements in poker by comparison??lololo well i guess that´s better than the guy who talked about chess.
@"That’s because there is a significant skill element which seperates the good players from the bad. Even if poker has 5% skill element (I personally believe it has more) then the 95% luck would even out if you play long enough, and the good players will win more of the 5% skill situations than bad players."
—-5% skill element is like i said basically knowing the rules..lolol u agree with me.
they must be playing real drunk guys to win 5%skill situations against 95% luck situations and still make a profit. lol
problem is when you are caught on the river when 90%ahead 4 times in a row lolololthen you start vtto understand the real importance of percentages in poker….maybe not. you just call that BAD LUCK.lolololo
@"To say this ‘IF OR WHEN THERE IS NO CHEATING INVOLVED poker is a game of luck and the only thing you can control in each hand is how much money you will risk losing.’ shows a basic lack of understanding about the odds of winning. Even right at the start with only two cards in your hand you can estimate roughly what your odds of winning are. If you play every hand, including 6-2, 7-2 etc, you will lose a far greater percentage of hands than someone who sits back and waits for A10 or better to play. "
—-if you are playing someone who knows the rules you will only get payed if he holds something. so on top of needing a good hand yourself you need him to have a good hand too (forget geads up here) tou need that luck.
if you play a moron his pair will be enough for him to pay big to see your trips.
you wrote:"If you play every hand, including 6-2, 7-2 etc, you will lose a far greater percentage of hands than someone who sits back and waits for A10 or better to play. "WOW is that what skill is? how many years of practice does it take to understand that?
@"Being able to guage what your odds of winning are, with your particular hand, with your particular position at the table, against the particular players you are playing with, and knowing how they will react to your bets based on your past knowledge of how they have played earlier hands. THAT is the definition of the skill in poker."
—-"and knowing how they will react to your bets based on your past knowledge of how they have played earlier hands."WOW again, you not only have the knowledge of knowing how they played you KNOW lol how they will react to your bets, because they react to your bets based on what they did before (because they are either your friends or retards) and never, i mean never based on what they are holding and the board. sure, like i said before thats the kind of player the industry wants to lure.
position is important alright! but how many years of pratice does one need to learn the importance of position? how much skill to learn it?
@"Yes you will lose sometimes. But good players come out with more wins on average than bad players, and if poker was all luck, this wouldn’t happen."
—and heads came out 68x because it has more skills too.
their wins on average depend on luck and how many drunks, adicts, drugged, or novice they find. fish like you guys like to call them lol the shark is the sites and the teeth are their poster boys.
@"You begin with an argument that shows how little you understand about poker."
—what argument?
you begin with an argument that shows how liitel you understand about me.
@"Then, when reminded of the fact that winning players exist, you conveniently accuse every single winning player in existence of being a cheater, with no evidence whatsoever."
—there are winning lottery players too. i never said there were no winning players. PAY ATTENTION.
and dont put words in my mouth.
i said every winning player in existence is either lucky, or cheated, OR playing against new comers or people with psychological and social problems, and as you should know they abound in gambling world.
@"Just a massive conspiracy theory. Everyone online is a hacker, and everyone in the casino is teaming up against the non-regulars."
—i never talked about conspiracy theory, never said eryone online was an hacker or teaming up in casinos. so you are basing your arguments on what you would like me to say because you have no valid arguments against what i really said.
@"It just so happens that, the same people who win at the casino, all know how to hack as well, so they also win when they play online. The hackers online, when they play in a casino, happen to already be in on the collusion deal when they sit at the table, which explains why they win at the casino also. Do I understand you correctly?"
—you understand nothing lolol and you think you are smart? are you obsessed with hackers?
do you know the cash game profit of SPONSORED players???YOU DONT, so dont talk about people winning because you really dont know how they do in cash games online, and they dont want you to know.
@"Have you actually played at a casino? How about giving examples of hands where you think collusion was involved. Also, online, how is the cheating done, by hacking or by collusion? If collusion, give examples of online collusion also (should be easy since you have hand histories, and since you can watch any table right now with a few regulars sitting at it)."
—online poker is a game of luck and only luck. 100% luck 100%gambling and legally it+s gambling not a sport because the results depend only on luck.
the biggest lie is trying to sell it as a game of skill when it´s not.that+s the big scheme.
and yes people cheat whenever and wherever they can. i dont play online, i couldn´t care less if it´s rigged or not. but to those reading this i leave my humble warning. everybody cheat if they can.
@"First let’s rule out lucky. No one can win for years straight by luck alone. Likewise, no one can be a consistent loser by bad luck alone."
listen to yourself:"FIRST LET´S RULE OUT LUCK!"???you cant rule out luck in any poker debate.
no one can win years straight at poker, if playing against opponents with more than let´s say….300 hours of practice. they all are at the same level and depend only on luck to take money from eachother. but if someone with more than 300 hours of poker experience plays someone with less than10 hours of experience and knowledge he will consistenly win, not because he is skilled but because he is more familiar with every situation and aspects of the game. poker is simple but people still have to memorize some stuff and it´s hard to make decisions when you struggle to remember what a full house is.
@"It sounds like you’re catching on…people win by playing against players who aren’t as good as them. Guess what: I completely agree. But here’s where we differ– the fact that there is a difference between a newcomer and a pro, proves that there is something called skill. In Slots there is no skill, an first-time puller is just as likely to win as someone who’s been playing for 50 years. The same can’t be said of poker, you’ve already admitted."
—-THERE ARE NO PROS. only SPONSORED players who are paid by online gambling rooms to play there and help making clients leave the money in the house. the fact is you have cards dealt randomly, a board you cant control at anytime, you dont know the card that will be dealt on the turn or river, you dont have a clue about your opponents hands (online poker) and yet in a game with so many variables people claim to be skilled because they called and won and unlucky when they call and lose.
you can win 600 dollars in a week, yes you can. next week you can be victim of 5 SICK bad beats and lose 500. that leaves you with a 100 profit that you will lose in a 6th consecutive sick bad beat and you are down to zero again. and that is the life of any non sponsored poker player. ups and downs. you can even have a good 3 year run and lose everything and be in debt in the 4th year not because you are not playing well anymore but because somehow your trips always meet a full house, your straights always meet a flush, your flush always meet a higher flush and so on. and this happens a lot in online poker. industry advertises the compuer nerd who plays in 25 tables but not the dude who won 30000 dollars in the first 5 years he played but lost 50000 in the fifth and sixth year. and there are many cases like that. what you are going to tell me? those guys didnt know how to play anymotre?
@"Does it take much skill to beat a newcomer? No, but it takes some skill to beat someone in between "newcomer" and "pro". It takes skill to lose nothing against a pro, or to make a small profit against a pro (unless otherwise stated, I’m always talking about the long term). But now you’re probably gonna try to argue that there is no such thing as a range of skill levels. You’re gonna say there’s only "complete newcomer" and "pro" and nothing in between. You’re gonna say any decent player is just as good as Phil Ivey and Tom Dwan, correct me if I’m wrong?"
—the beauty of that long term profit talk is that it´s hard to keep track of it isn´t it?lol
what i say is that there are no pros. they are sponsored that´s all. and yes ivey and helmuth know the game but poker is not hard to know, and nobody can see other people cards or predict boards, and guessing is not a skill is just GUESSING so they lose to the darvin moons in tournaments, they need chips from their mates, and sponsors.
@"I’ll ask you the same thing I asked someone else: if you played a bunch of heads-up matches against Phil Ivey, do you believe you’d win 50% of the matches?"
—-typical question. you all ask the same things.
no i wouldnt win 50%. that is a stupid thought. the fact that odds are 50% doesnt mean that i would win 50% just like you having AA preflop in heads up against 10 10 means you win 80% of the time in 100 hands
correction:
no i wouldnt win 50%. that is a stupid thought. the fact that odds are 50% doesnt mean that i would win 50% just like you having AA preflop in heads up against 10 10 doesnt mean you will win 80% of the time in 100 hands
@"Oh and that’s another thing— how are heads-up players winning? They have no one to collude with."
—they win when they are lucky. thats how they win.
@"It’s just funny, all the people at the casino who say poker is all luck, happen to be low-stakes players, and happen to be the fish at the table. I salivate whenever I hear a player make that comment. What WOULD a losing player know about skill involved in a game?"
—typical again….you talk as if you are smarter than everybody else. as if there were so many precious secrets involved in playing poker. as if guessing lol was a skill.
if poker wasn´t a game of luck everybody would be making money from it because a monkey with half a brain can learn it and understand the pseudo reasoning behind all the decisions at the table.
there is a plateau of knowldge for poker. you reach a certain point there is nothing left to learn and it´s up to lady luck to decide.
sure you can win consistently against those who didnt reach the plateau yet or mentally unstable but i talked about that already.
@"Me: "How about giving examples of hands where you think collusion was involved."
You: "online poker is a game of luck and only luck"…"i dont play online"
LOL! Just step back for a moment and try to see how dumb you’re making yourself look! You’re speaking about things you’ve never even witnessed? Have you ever even PLAYED POKER?? Or have you only seen it on TV?"
—sorry but i notice you have text interpretation problems.
I WROTE: "i dont play online" I DINT WRITE "i never played online" did i?
@"Plus you asked for a SPONSORED player, here’s one: nanonoko.
http://www.pokertableratings.com/stars-p…
Plays 24 tables at once, makes about 0/hour. Let me ask you this:
1) Is he colluding with people while playing 24 tables at once? It would be awfully hard to find time to chat with people, while having to make decisions every two seconds.
2) Was he just LUCKY for 3.6 MILLION hands?
(3.6 million hands is about 50 YEARS’ worth of hands at a casino)"
—-thats is BS propaganda to lure thousands of nerds adicted to video games to deposit moneyy from their parents in online poker rooms.
why dont you go read about how someone who was once a poker winner got ruined by it. cant you find those stories? i bet you cant because there are too many people making money from this lie right now.
@"What a waste of time. This is like talking to a termite"
—what did you expect? you presented folding a pair of kings as a skillfull move!!!lol´~
THAT was a waste of time i agree.
@"Propaganda, by a 3rd-party site that has no affiliation with the poker sites? It’s a DATABASE. It just tracks hands, that’s all it does. It tracks everyone’s hands, losing players included. You can look anyone up on any day and see how they did that day or lifetime. The site makes money by you buying a subscription, or from you buying hand histories."
—propaganda!!!! know what it is? everything related to poker, databases, online poker rooms, players they are all so honest. in all other sports lying and corruption abound but i guess poker world is a oasis of honesty in modern society lolol
@"There are plenty of online players just like Nano, who aren’t famous or sponsored. They might make a fraction of what he makes but that’s still a comfortable living. Multi-table grinding is the norm, not the exception. Nano only makes 3 big-blinds per 100 hands, which wouldn’t be much at all if he weren’t multi-tabling."
—to play 20 tables at the same time one must rely mostly on the strenght of his starting hand to win. he has no time to think a lot and must play by numbers. you think it´s hard to play poker like that? he has no time to think about betting paterns, hand history and all those "skills" lololoo
@""I WROTE: "i dont play online" I DINT WRITE "i never played online" did i?"
Maybe you shouldn’t have wrote it in response to, "Give me examples of hands where collusion was involved." How ELSE am I supposed to interpret your statement, in that context?"
AGAIN YOU HAVE TEXT INTERPRETATION PROBLEMS.
i said "i dont play poker online" in the context of what i said not what you said. and what i said was "i couldnt care less if it´s rigged" and the reason for not caring is "i dont play online"
pay attention and read what i write not what you would like me to write.
@"So far my prediction holds: you have failed to present a single hand as evidence to support your claim that most of the winners are colluding. Nor have you explained how so many players can collude while playing at 6-12 tables at once"
AGAIN you have problems understanding what you read.
i never talked about cheating. im talking about poker being a game of luck (by law too, and it will always be) and the fact that some people sell it as if it is not. everybody who lives of playing online poker is paid a wage by sites either win or lose.
@"Okay, and who do you think the online players are playing against? The competition online is very tough, which is why a pro like nanonoko only makes 3 big blinds per 100 hands. If he were playing donkeys, he’d be making 50-100 big blinds per 100 hands."
—no, if that guy plays 3 BB per 100 hands is because he plays 20 tables at the same time and is waiting for hands like KK AA QQ. he is playing based on what he holds. not what others may hold and most of the times he probably ignores the board too.
but i doubt that story. like i said that is propaganda!
@"
Interesting…though you don’t watch every player in the world play and aren’t watching other people’s lives at all times, you in your omniscient glory somehow KNOW that no pros exist. Did God tell you that? How ARROGANT do you have to be to speak on behalf of everyone else in the world?"
—ridiculous text
@"I’m not sponsored and that’s not my life. It’s been 3 months since I even had a losing week. Before that it was another few months. But of course you KNOW i’m lying."
—WOW if someone like you who reads what his brain finds more convenient instead of what is actually written can win at poker everyday for 3 weeks, i m sure anybody can.
problem is you LIE.
i dont need to look at you to know you lie. poker is not your life? i know.
@""you can even have a good 3 year run and lose everything and be in debt in the 4th year "
No you can’t, unless you’re undisciplined. You only play at stakes where you can afford to take lots of bad beats"
—-here it is:THE DISCIPLINE THEORYlololololol
"You only play at stakes where you can afford to take lots of bad beats" and when you win you get rich lolol
@"—the beauty of that long term profit talk is that it´s hard to keep track of it isn´t it?lol"
Um no, online it’s VERY easy to track. In fact, most players have their own tracking software which saves every hand on their computer. They track other players and themselves that way. The online database I mentioned tracks every table at all times of the day. Keep trying, maybe 1 million bad arguments will add up to 1 good one."
—yes and you even get to pay for that information. and that information is true and great. you live in a fantasy world dont you?
yes…everybody is so honest. they are all great arent they these poker people.
isnt that site linked to specific gambling sites?
Supported Poker Rooms
PokerStars PokerStars iPoker iPoker
Full Tilt Full Tilt Cake Poker Cake Poker
Party Poker Party Poker Bodog Bodog
Absolte Poker Absolute Poker
yes it is!!!!!! independent??lololol
@"Aw come on man, you knew what I meant. I don’t mean EXACTLY 50.000% you moron…i mean in the neighborhood, 45-55%. I’d fall off my chair if you won even 25% of the matches, even against me, and i’m definitely no Ivey."
—if some actor beat ivey in heads up so can i you and anybody else. i already explained why he is who he is.
@"No, I talk as though I spend 50+ hours a week beating people in poker. Yes it’s funny when one of the people I’m beating speaks as though he is as skilled as anyone in the game (which is the same as claiming the game is all luck)."
WOW it took you this long to understand that i claim poker is all about luck?
you spend more than 50 hours a week beating people in poker? lolololo and the rest of the time you are lying about it in yahooanswers right??? liar……..
@"The same can be said of ANY game. In poker, NO ONE has reached that plateau yet. Ivey might have come close, but he will be the first one to tell you he is still working on improving."
—-you either know how to play or dont.
anybody reach ivey level in 500 hours of experience. maybe 1000 for someone like you lolol
@"I’ll close with this concept:
If I said the event of something happening is 70%, and we experimented 2 million times and it happened about 70% of the time, would you say the experiment was a fluke, would you say the result was just a "lucky coincidence"?
—if it is 70% it means it CAN happen 70% at a certain point. it can be at 500 1000000 or 2000000- but if it happens 40% after 2000000 tries it willl be as normal as if it happens 70% and if you try 5000000 more it can be 90% and that will be normal too
@"lol did someone actually read all this??
if you cant beat the game it does not mean that everyone else is just luckier than you. take some time to learn and you will see how much skill is involved."
—i played poker for 23 years and i beat the game when i was lucky or skilled when playing drunks, or simply idiots.. i know how muchskill is involved. the only skill required is know the rules, know hand values, calculate the chances of someone hiting the board stronger than you, bluff occasionaly and guet used to recognise when to do it and when it´s safe to do it, because nobody wins regularly by bluffing a lot in large pots, and manage your stack with common sense. all this is extremely simple to understand by any normal person. problem is that ,many people have psychological problems, social problems, and they are lured by promises of easy money at poker tables. and then they lose against people who use common sense when playing, that is what creates the ilusion of skill.
@"COMPUTER SAYS:
Mathematica 6:
CDF[BinomialDist BLA BLAH BLAH!."
FIRST i dont know what powerball is and i dont care.
i dont believe you understand any of that math
anyway, it is unlikely it will happen 45% of the times but it can. 40% to 75% is a big difference but it CAN happen over 2000000.. and if it couldn´t it still wouldnt prove nothing in this particular debate.
FACT is i ask for examples of skill in poker and not you or anybody else could give them.
is it so hard to find a video among thousands of poker videos in youtube or something where someone wins by skill?
you know it is because it´s always about luck luck luck. THERE IS MORE KNOWLEDGE RQUIRED TO PLAY POKER THAN TO PLAY SLOT MACHINES BUT NOT SKILl. the reasoning behind poker decisions is too basic to be considered skill.
@"I chose to take a different, less subjective approach to this argument. I could easily give examples, but I figured I’d instead point to the insurmountable evidence of winning long-term players already existing. And then mathematical proof that you can’t be a winning long-term player by luck alone. So what I’ve done is actually PROVE that poker is not luck. I didn’t give the examples you wanted, which would have been more open to interpretation and opinion. Mathematics isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact. But of course, you don’t want to hear facts."
sure you proved that if you play only AA KK and AK you will win more hands than lose. but the fact that everybody know the odds and try to take the same advantage from them makes poker a game of luck.
sure if you play someone who calls with anything and make dumb decisions you are likely to win but not because you are skilled.
you cant change odds, they are the same for everybody else.
(continuation)
a slot machine ca have the RNG programed to return 75% of the money a player puts in it right?right!
but if you play 100$ divided by 100 spins (1$ per spin) you may end up with only 40$ of your starting 100$. that will be a 40% return, even if the machine is programmed to return 75%. this situation may and it does happen in slot machines all around the world. not because they are rigged but because 75% is no 100% and the long run is a relative concept.
you may say the machine gives 40% in that particular set of 100 spins but in the long run it will give 75%. sure but what is the long run?
2000000 spins? why not 15000000? at 2000000 spins the machine can be at 40% return but reach 75% at 15000000 spins.
same thing with AK vs AQ example. in 100 HU hands of AK vs AQ, AK will prevail most of the times but the chances of AQ winning 75% of the hands in a particular set of 100 hands is not near as bad as 1:193000000.not for 100 hands, not for 2000000 too.
@*Edit 6*
THAT´S RIGHT! everybody is getting the same chances of getting the same hands and everybody is waiting for the same situations to exploit right? wrong!!! there are many players who use the knowledge you obviously have to their advantage. you call those players good players and they win more than they lose in the long run. BUT they are not winning that money that makes them profitable against people playing in the same frame of mind as them and using the same logic as them. to beat those the "good player" will need luck. BUT he is relying not on good players to make the positive balance but on the newcomers, crazy, drunk, adicts, tilting (nervous people i call them) and all those who play online and shouldn´t be because they are there for the wrong reasons. poker is an easy to learn game and the key to master it is staying cool and let luck do her job always taking advantagen of the fact that there are odds to calculate.
i have to disagree when you say most players online know what they are doing. sure most fold 72 but even if there are many players who play cool there are also lots of people with serious problems and even kids under 18 playing. all those 70% players you talk must do is be patient and exploit those. and dont forget those players who make a living online are paid by sites to be there. you dont know the REAL numbers. sites like the one you mentioned are …..sorry.
they play cool and probebly even have a 70% profit they share with the house.
one day this online poker BS will go down. it´s a matter of time because im sure there are a lot of BS going on. on the other hand this world we live in is so corrupt that everything EVERYTHING is possible.
nowadays being smart and an hardworker in real life is not enough most of the times but there is a group of people in the years 2000 who advocate the idea that you can be a winner by having skills in a game of pure luck.
these are crazy times.
@"f everyone else were to learn what those players know, then there would no longer be any winners or losers, and the game would indeed be reduced to luck. If everyone played exactly the same, and played 5 million hands, anyone who made even the smallest amount of money would have done so by being luckier than the rest. But in real life, not everyone plays at the same level."
DUDE you write all those edits and in the end you say almost exactly what i say.
difference is i would add something to your text above:
"if everyone else were to learn and use what those players know, then there would no longer be any winners or losers, and the game would indeed be reduced to luck. If everyone played exactly the same, and played 5 million hands, anyone who made even the smallest amount of money would have done so by being luckier than the rest. But in real life, not everyone plays at the same level, not because they cant understand and learn the odds and all the things those players know but because there are far too many crazy people in the world than you think. and to play poker you cant be crazy or dumb. those players are not skilled. they just play by logic. there is no skillfull way to cross a road. you just cross it when it´s safe, it´s that simple but many people cant help getting run over.same thing in poker. many people cant help being stupid at the tables because they have problems. and when someone have problems there is always someone there to take advantage of it and get 70%ahead.
@"Fred is first to act at a full table with 10 players and he raises to . That is a very strong move being first. (You would only know that as a skilled player, but that’s beside the point.)"
being the first to act and betting strong is a strong move for obvious reasons. i understood that in the first 30 minutes of playing poker….when i was 10 lolololol does it take skill to understand that???lolol thats what i talk about!!!
i will focus on you and fred.
you got AA and that is the best hand as we all know. he raised strong from a weak position so you can guess he has a pair. you raised him so he will call you thinking maybe you have an higher pair or AK suited.
flop is Q J 6 with 2 diamonds.and fred checks it. you decide to test the waters as you did in your K fold example LOL so you bet 100 in a pot of 120, because you think maybe you can scare him if he totally missed the flop and take the pot, or be sure of his strenght if he calls or raises. problem is fred probably got scared of a diamond flush for you on the turn or river and protected his set. you imediately ruled out a possible flush draw call by him and that was a mistake in your reasoning. if he pushed all in with a set of Js he would call if he had a flush draw.and if he hit a diamond on the turn you would probably think he was bluffing the flush lol and lose more chips.
i will explain the luck factor in that hand. —-fred simply got trips on the flop lolol how is that for being lucky?
and you folded because that was all you could do with a pair of aces facing re raise all in after a trap check
you have your habit of testing the waters and that cost you 100chips too many in this case.
i would check after fred and drop the hand if no A came on the turn and there was a big rais.
after playing more than 100 AA hands only an idiot gets all excited and lose.
AA can be dangerous hands and even more when not in heads up situation because it is more vulnerable to flushes (like any pair) and is also vulnerable to lower trips like in this case. so you did well in folding. only an idiot or a complete beginner would call that all in. was that skill? no, it was common sense. fred got lucky and you believed him. he could also have 2 pair and the guys calling the pre flop raise most probably had A in their hands and you had no A on the deck to wait for
@"edit 3" by pdq AND *Hopefully Final Edit* by huckleberry
the need for "fish at the sea" is the reason behind the aggressive marketing and publicity campaign from online gambling rooms. like you both said when people start playing poker they all do the same kind of mistakes. there are also lot´s of impulsive people who would call with AA in the situation our friend described only because they are impulxive and even knowing they are surely behind they want to go at it and gamble the turn and river.and some people are also simply dumb and can´t understand certain things.
any competent poker player gets his money from these people. you are either competent and take only logical decisions and never get emotional or you are not and lose in the long run giving competent players a positive balance at the expense of your kind.
but if all players were competent and played the game properly (wich is easy if you are rational), poker is a game luck.
in the situation pdq described fred got lucky and won 100chips
but if pdq had Q trips fred would lose 400 lol because he would be really unlucky and pdq really lucky. because, not only he got trip Q on flop, there was also a J to make fred bite with his pocket J. and if it was fred with pocket Q it would be pdq the one getting squeezed. because there is no way you will not pay more than the pot if you hit trip Js on the flop even with an higher card there.
so too player with the same logical thinking playing eachother will only take some money from eachother in situations like this. then they find a fish who bites with AA and get 400dollars, then they get lucky or unlucky against logical players until they fish the next victim who for some reason gives some more money to them in an idiotic move, and so it goes.
POKER, if played logically by all involved is a game of luck. if played emotionally and without thinking is a game of luck.
but if an emotional guy sits with players playing by logic he will lose more than win. but that will be du to the emotional player taking dumb decisions not skill by the others. you cant call making decisions based in logic a skill. i mean you can, but not when when the thinking required to find the logic thing to do is as basic as in poker.
i believe it can be hard making money online, that´s exactly what i say. to make money online you have to minimize your losses against players as rational as you when you get unlucky, and maximize your profit whenever you find some disturbed soul, and there are also many out there. that´s all there is to it.
against rational players you can only take significant money from them if you are lucky that they have a strong enough hand to bite…but not to win.
we are almost writting a f*****g book here
@***EDIT 4***
"They won’t let me type more. Long story short, in many ways you’re proving there is skill in poker. E-mail me to continue the conversation"
—do as huckleberry, delete what you wrote and write new stuff.
you will be a skilled yahooanswers user.
long story short making logical decisions in the long run and win at the expense of people who get unlucky, or are not familiar with the game, or have problems in not letting emotion get in the way of logical thinking cannot be considered a skill.
just like deleting what you wrote to keep wtiting here cannot be considered a skill. knowledge is not a skill.